What Your Comfort Costs Us -The Power of Pause and Rest with Dr. Gabriela Alcalde

Deneen L. Garrett:00:02 00:29
Hello, hello, everybody. I am so excited for today's conversation. Welcome back to Women of Color, an Intimate Conversation. Today's guest is Dr. Gabriela Alcade. She is a creative and an anti-supremacist leader, which I am interested in having a conversation about, especially with where we are today. But Dr. Gabriela, tell us three things you want the audience to know about you.

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:00:30 01:29 Hi, Dineen. First, thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm so excited to join you on this podcast and conversation. Three things about me. OK, first one, I was born and raised in Lima, Peru. So I identify as an immigrant, which significantly shapes my perspective. Two, I'm a mother and currently I am getting used to an empty nest as my children are off in college and that is a much bigger shift than I expected it to be. And three, I think it's important to share that I've worked in multiple sectors. And that's really shaped how I understand and how I address issues of leadership and workplace. I've worked in local government, in higher education, in nonprofits. I worked as an elementary school teacher, as a grassroots leader. And for the past 13 years, I've worked in institutional philanthropy.

Deneen L. Garrett:01:31 01:52 Thank you for that, and so the title of our conversation actually i'm just going to name it after your book, so we can get people used to seeing it right, so that they can pre order it, but what your comfort costs us so that's the conversation we're having today. What is an anti supremacist leader.

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:01:54 03:05 So I I'll start by saying that I'm not so much an anti-supremacist leader as I am actively working on becoming an anti-supremacist leader because I think is something that you do for your whole life. Yeah. I think of being anti-supremacist in terms of actively working to. assess and question, and when necessary, dismantle systems and structures that depend on us believing that some groups of people are inherently more worthy, more valuable, and should have more power and resources than others. So being anti-supremacist is not just about individual actions, but it's a really fundamental shift in our mindset and our approach I think about it as engaging at the cultural level, as addressing our underlying beliefs and the values that shape our culture. So this really requires that, as a leader, that you engage in self-awareness, self-reflection, ongoing practice and understanding that failure is a part of it, an important part of it, and really a willingness and the courage to engage in difficult conversations and difficult action.

Deneen L. Garrett:03:06 03:14 Yeah. And so, you know, you mentioned growing up in Lima, Peru, how did that shape who you are today in the work that you're doing?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:03:16 05:02 That's a great question. That was one of the three things I mentioned about myself. So clearly, it's an important aspect of who I am and what shaped me. The Peru that I grew up in, in the 70s and 80s, there was a lot of violence. There was a lot of scarcity. There was terrorist groups. And I grew up with that on the news every day and sort of as part of our reality. I was very aware from the earliest memories I have of deep inequality in the world. And I could see that everywhere. You know, I could see the poverty. I could see the racism. I could see really what I now understand to be the consequences of violent settler colonialism. And so from a very young age, it really instilled in me a commitment and a desire for justice and for people being treated kindly and fairly. It was very painful to witness the violence all around me. So it also made empathy and solidarity essential values. And those have really shaped how I engage with the world. In my book, what your comfort costs us, I started off by sharing a little bit about me and I and I share that I actually never had any aspirations to be a leader, but it was growing up in the circumstances that were all around me in Peru. that sort of made me feel like I didn't have a choice, that speaking up against injustice, against inequality and working to mitigate the suffering that felt so unnecessary. So I feel like it really shaped my sense of necessity in becoming a leader.

Deneen L. Garrett:05:03 05:45 Yeah, and what's important to point out for those who are watching or listening is that often our circumstances our environment pick us as to what we're going to do right like what we pursue in life what. things we take upon to champion, it's often those things choosing us as opposed to us choosing those things. Both happen, right? But as you're sharing, you never intended to do the work. Things around you kind of presented itself and it chose you to do the work. So where are you living today? Are you in the US?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:05:46 05:52 I am in the U.S. I am in the northeast in Maine and very, very snowy and cold Maine.

Deneen L. Garrett:05:54 06:33 Well, I can relate on the code. I am in Detroit. It's probably not as cold, right? Because the sun has been shining the last few days and it's kind of warm, like we're in the high 30s. So I'm like, wait, right? We might even hit 40 something. I don't know. So a heat wave. But so listening to your story, listening to what you just shared, how you did grow up, are you seeing in, let's say in the media, social media or news, whatever, are you seeing some similarities? Are you concerned about some things repeating?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:06:35 09:21 Yes. I think that You know, the US is one of the or the most unequal nations in terms of income and wealth has tremendous shocking disparities in terms of health. and access to resources. And that is what I grew up with in Peru. There was also a falling apart of civic infrastructure in terms of, you know, with terrorism. And there were just such drastically opposing views that people really weren't engaging in public discourse. in the way that you imagine in a healthy community, and in what one would think about in the US with a healthy democracy. I think when we when we see things like what we've been experiencing this week with federal funding, being frozen, thankfully, that has been halted now. But the panic that that causes in people, yeah, frankly, that's very reminiscent. And I was just a child. But I remember being seen on the news, you know, the scarcity of essential things like bread and flour and rice, but also electricity, also access to health care, access to information, access to jobs, extremely high inflation, much more than what we've been experiencing in the US. But yeah, I think it's been It has been bringing me back to that. And that's been challenging. And one of the things that I've been thinking about is the need to really ground ourselves in our values, right? that in order to remain alert and adaptive to a rapidly changing environment, we've got to understand the big picture. We've got to take deep breaths and support each other, find community. And it really amplifies the importance of aligning our actions with our values, staying true to our commitment to fairness, to community, to equity, and just, I think, the deepened importance of acting and engaging at the local and state level as well, right? To really think about what does community mean to me? How do I find my community? How do I support my community? And really leaning into the values that are most important to you and that define you. And for me, those are the values of, like I said earlier, solidarity, and empathy and justice. So I think those things have been on my mind quite a bit the last few weeks, as I imagine it has been on many people's minds.

Deneen L. Garrett:09:22 10:28 Yeah, absolutely. And especially community. Community has something, you know, conversation like the different platforms that I'm on, when I'm talking with people, that's something that's so critical for us and people are looking for that community and it's so important now. And I think that one, you know, that is something that has come out of this or that's coming out of this that I think I do take a little, I do take some comfort in. is that we are wanting that community, we are recognizing that we are better together. Some of us, you know, are coming in late to it, right, because we should have already been in community. But life happens and things happen to, I think a lot of the stuff is by design to separate people and those things, but now this thing is bringing us all back together and that part I hold on to, and I'm looking for that community. Did you have community when you were growing up, when you were in Lima? Did you have a sense of community or was it really more so people were just individual and everybody was just trying to survive?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:10:28 11:43 I think at that point in my life, because I was very young, the family was my community. And we lived within walking distance of my grandmothers and aunts and uncles. So I think that was our community. My friends in the neighborhood, That was where we supported each other, where we would check in on each other, you know, the same way that, you know, we had bombs when I was growing up, so we would call each other and check in. Are you okay? Where were you? So I think that's really important, family, friends, community, however you define community, because that really shapes who we are, gives us a sense of self and identity, but it also gives us a sense of, are we living in alignment with our values? Does our community manifest and practice the values that we really care about? Is it somewhere that we feel safe, not just physically but psychologically safe? So I think that you point out a really essential piece, not just of where we are right now, but What has always been essential to us. Right. And something that comes up in my book a lot. The concept of and the centrality of community. It's at the center of everything that matters to humans.

Deneen L. Garrett:11:44 12:10 Yeah. And we will get into your book a little bit more, but I want to kind of kind of talk about so the work that you're doing the advocacy that you're doing what changes, are you having to make shifting pivoting. Today, versus before the election like i'm sure you know some of the things you're still doing, but i'm sure that there's some things that you're having to do differently, what are some of those things.

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:12:12 13:37 I think it's a yes and also I think it's continuing what we were doing before to your point. I think when you're leading from your values, those hold steady. So the circumstances around you might change. So that might change the tempo at which you're doing things. It might change the sense of urgency and maybe the sense of what the consequences are. So certainly taking into account Who is more vulnerable right now and how do we wrap ourselves around the communities that are more exposed that are more vulnerable. And certainly as somebody that works at a foundation right now, the responsibility of being responsive and acting from a place of trust in community and centering what the community needs are. Those are things that have always guided how I engage in the world and yet I think right now, we're really putting the spotlight on the importance of those. So in many ways, in the same way that I would say, things have changed, but they really haven't. They've been amplified, they've been magnetized, they've been exacerbated, but really, I mean, these are all undercurrents that have been there for decades, for hundreds of years, really.

Deneen L. Garrett:13:38 13:49 No, you're absolutely right. Right. Yes. What do you have a number one fear? Right now, based on what you're saying.

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:13:50 15:08 I think the the biggest fear, because I think it can set off a chain of events, is that we will that the individualistic tendencies in the U.S. will lead us. And that will be the primary value we have. If we start saying, I'll take care of myself and my own and like forget everybody else, that's the biggest fear I have. Because like you and I have been talking, it's community. Community is the way forward. It's what all of us want. But it is one thing that I think all humans have in common and we need to be looking at what we have in common. Our shared humanity, so my biggest fear is that divide and conquer will take over. Yeah, we will start thinking from a scarcity mindset and thinking that there is. If you get something, that means I don't get it. instead of thinking the better off you are, the better off I am. Because when someone's suffering, everybody suffers, right? We're all connected. We're all interdependent. So I think that's my biggest fear is that we will lose what little bit of acknowledgment of interdependence that we have right now in the country.

Deneen L. Garrett:15:09 16:27 Yeah. And so along those lines, I actually believe that some of that Feeling that way, thinking that way is actually kind of what got us here as well. A group of people thinking that they were missing out on something when they really weren't, right? And so now you're seeing that to me, when I look at the attack on DEI, I look at it as that people make assumptions that DEI is Black, it's synonymous with Black. And so let's just take all these things away from Black people when that's not the case. And it's those people who are saying, let's get rid of it, who are probably more so impacted, right? And I see that. And I also see, as far as individuals, my fear around that is that a lot of individuals are going to take things into their own hands. even more emboldened than they've been. And I think we've seen that, right? With the one guy who just recently lost his life because he thought he didn't have to listen to authority. And so I, you know, thinking that there will probably be more of that. And so prayerfully and hopefully and all the things that it does not come to that, but that would be my fear around that as far as the individualism that you kind of mentioned.

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:16:28 16:30 Yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

Deneen L. Garrett:16:30 16:43 And so you mentioned you're a Maine, you mentioned that you're doing philanthropic work, so are your, the people that you serve, is it local? Are you doing this at a regional, a national, global level?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:16:43 17:52 It's a state level. Yeah, we're a state-serving organization, and we have a very broad mission. So we're really, really centered on communities. What do communities need? What do communities want? What are the opportunities for community? And that helps to ground us in that what we've been talking about, the importance of community, importance of interdependence, the importance of caring for each other, And it also reminds us that none of us are in a bubble. So yes, we serve Maine. And Maine is not really separate from the rest of the country. And the country is not really separate from the rest of the world. So whatever one's jurisdiction is, I think it's also important to remember these are porous borders. And so we have to care, if not out of compassion and empathy, out of pragmatism. Because there are no walls we can put to prevent what is affecting our neighbors.

Deneen L. Garrett:17:53 18:11 Yeah. Yeah, and you know, so kind of like on the flip side of what I've asked, what are you hopeful about? Other than community, like me, us coming back together, what are you hopeful about? Like, you're like, oh yes, I really feel that this thing is gonna happen, or I'm really looking forward to this thing happening.

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:18:13 20:19 What are your thoughts around that? Well, I think what we've seen in the past week is shocked a lot of people because there are such wide ramifications and impacts. So my hope is that it will cause us all to have some self-reflection and really ask ourselves, what are our values as individuals and as a country? You know, everywhere from the individual to our households, to our communities and to the whole country. Like, what are the values that really we want to be committed to? Where do we want to put our energy? I'm hoping that this can be a time of sometimes when we're in really challenging situations, it can be clarifying. You know, it forces you to only focus on the really essential, essential and important. And that's that's my hope that that we will have we will have an opportunity to really think about where do I want to put my energy? Where do I want to put myself and my life behind? And what is it that I really care and want to work towards? And I think that at our core, we all want connection. We all want to feel safe. And People have different beliefs about how we get there. This country, like every other country, there are experiments on how we get there, how we build a community that gives us that sense of being cared for, of being safe, but also the opportunity to dream and to feel joy, right? Because we shouldn't just survive. I mean, that's part of the point of my book, too. It's like work should not just be about toil. It should give us an opportunity to dream, to imagine. something better. So I hope that amidst all the challenges, we don't lose our desire and our ability to dream and to think about what a better future for everyone can look like.

Deneen L. Garrett:20:19 21:05 Yeah. And you know what? So, you know, like I mentioned on social and different platforms that that I'm connected with, like we are moving forward. Right. We are dreaming. We are thriving. We are moving. Ahead, you know we're acknowledging where we are and if it impacts us, you know how we move forward, but we're not allowing it to hinder us we're not allowing. It to get in our way we're going to continue to travel and to do the things so let's kind of talk about your book, and so it is a book it's a book that I believe it's for pre sale it's coming out in March. Is that correct? March 9th, yeah. And so you can't tell us everything about the book, right? So what can you tell us about what your comfort costs us?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:21:05 24:20 Yeah, first of all, it's being published by North Atlantic Books on March 9th. It is available for pre-order right now. And it's a book, I call it a labor of love. I wrote it during the pandemic and it's based, initially was based on my own firsthand experience as an immigrant woman of color working in nonprofit and philanthropy and higher education. And I felt it was really important to share my stories in the context of the stories of the many other women that I've been speaking to. So I actually interviewed and surveyed dozens of women of color leaders across the U.S. that work in nonprofit, in philanthropy, and in higher education. And the book really combines our stories. as third sector leaders and it delivers what I believe are engaging and very accessible personal stories where I draw lessons and recommendations for how we can create better workplace cultures for all of us and really acknowledging that during the pandemic, there was a lot of being written about burnout. and that a lot of us were living it, and that it doesn't have to be that way. So the book, I actually believe it's a very hopeful book, and it's an invitation. Learn from our stories, which we are very generously and courageously sharing, because they are sometimes very difficult and painful stories, right? And stories of harm. But they're also stories of hope and the determination of committed leaders. so that we can really create healthier, more inclusive, supportive work environments where we all thrive and we get to be full human beings. So that it means that it affects our communities, it affects our families, and hopefully it helps us create a healthier future. So for me, I think of the book as a contribution to healthier workplaces and I also really believe that storytelling is an essential human need. And it's also how we learn. I think we learn better when it's through stories, when we can understand that it's a human being I'm a researcher as well, so I love facts and statistics. I love that. I love some good analysis. But the reality is that our brains are wired to learn through connection and through stories. So the book really uses that as a vehicle to say, let's figure out what's going on and let's do that through our stories. And then I offer a lot of that research and a lot of those facts as well, so that there's a context. So we understand these are not isolated stories. These are not, you know, things that are out of the ordinary. These are stories that are happening across the country. And while I focus on women of color, which is already a very big and diverse group, it really affects everybody. Because when our cultures are unhealthy, they affect everyone. So that's really the message of the book is let's learn from these courageous leaders how to make our workplaces healthier for everybody.

Deneen L. Garrett:24:20 25:44 Yeah, and the storytelling is absolutely key. I recall during the pandemic and specifically after George Floyd was murdered, you know, we were having conversations and people, you know, in the workplace and so people were telling their stories black men were telling their stories and in their encounters. with police, and it was so pivotal because a lot of people you work with, you know, whether you're in the workplace side by side, they don't know you, they don't know that you experienced this. And so when you share your story, when you tell your story, and they're like, oh my God, really that happened to you? Now it makes it real. And it makes it like, oh, wow, okay, I need to care about this, because this person who I work with, I sit next to every day, you know, Monday through Friday, whatever the situation, for however many years, they have experienced this thing. So this thing is real. And so storytelling is absolutely crucial. Now, in your book, talking to the different women of color, their stories, their experiences, again, you wrote this during the pandemic, and then thinking about your interactions even since then, what do you want most for women of color? Like besides the community, us knowing our values, what do you want most for us?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:25:46 27:50 Safety. Yeah. Safety, physical, psychological and economic safety. There are a lot of things that, you know, that I share in the book. And I think that in the end, like what it comes down to is we want safety, we want to feel safe. Again, a very basic human desire and need. But when we don't feel safe, It really takes a toll on you. It takes a toll on you physically. It takes a toll on the community. You can't really pay attention to other things. You can't put the energy into dreaming about a better tomorrow when you don't feel safe. So I even looked at some of the brain science around what does feeling unsafe do to you? I cite research on weathering and the impact that that has, particularly on Black women. Being exposed to an environment that's not safe, it actually ages you prematurely. So I have to say safety, safety is the most basic and essential that, you know, from there, we can go to my next desire is that we all be able to fully unfurl into our fullest selves. Yes, without having to make ourselves small to be safe. Right? Because that's that was a theme in all the stories. women feeling like they have to make themselves small, but they have to contort themselves. They have to shape shift in order to feel safe, in order to be accepted. And that is not a good way to live. That really takes its toll, not only on the individuals, but it takes a toll on those organizations and our communities. If our people are only existing in this diminished way, we're missing out on the fullness of the talents, of the imagination, of the possibility that we all bring.

Deneen L. Garrett:27:53 28:05 And so I do want to get into, you know, you just mentioned dreams. So I want to kind of pivot to that conversation. But before I go there, where did the title for your book come from? What was the motivation behind what your comfort cost us?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:28:07 29:49 It's actually very related to safety. So one of the realizations, one of those like middles of the night, like, oh my gosh, that's what it is, that I had was some people are confusing discomfort for lack of safety. And that's what I was seeing and what I was hearing in the conversations I was having, that certain workplaces and certain individuals, and I think this is a mirror to broader society, were reacting in this like really intense way and saying, you can't do that. And there was, you know, people would say, I feel attacked. No, you feel uncomfortable. And when you're used to feeling comfortable all the time, When you become uncomfortable, you think it's lack of safety. So I actually one of the first chapters in the book is me sort of sharing through another story. What is the difference between comfort and safety? and the importance of understanding that distinction before we even hear the stories. Because that was sort of like a root cause of a lot of what I was hearing that I recognized. A lot of people do not understand the distinction between being comfortable and being safe, especially those who've been used to being safe their whole life and who are used to being comfortable their whole life. it's difficult to tell that difference. So that's what I wanted to really call attention, that there is a cost to demanding comfort by the dominant groups in our society. And that cost is the safety of the collective, of all of us.

Deneen L. Garrett:29:50 30:50 Yeah, and so the next question was going to be, which I already figured. The answer, but who is the your you're talking about and your you're talking about is the dominant. Class which definitely makes sense, and so, even what you were just sharing it reminds me of I participated in a panel, maybe about a year ago, and we were talking about rest and someone mentioned how resting. was a privilege. And that Black women in particular, because it was a panel of all Black women, but that we, a lot of us didn't have the privilege to rest because we were so busy taking care of everybody else. And so now we're in a state where Black women, we are, we're resting. We're bowing out. We're like, you know what? We put in the work. We did all the things as we have for years. And now we're not, right? We're going to rest and even rest is resistance.

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:30:51 30:51 Yes.

Deneen L. Garrett:30:52 31:14 Yeah. And so, you know, we're, we're still going forward with that right we're arresting we're restoring. We're doing the things and and we're resisting and so when you were talking about what your comfort costs you us, and what led you to that made me think of that particular panel in that coming up in. in the conversation.

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:31:14 31:23 There's a chapter towards the end of the book that talks about rest and the need for rest and self-care and collective care and joy. Yes, absolutely. 100%.

Deneen L. Garrett:31:25 31:44 And so, you know, so that's perfect for us to kind of end things around living a dream lifestyle, living the dream, being able to dream and some of the things that we can dream about. So let's kind of spend some time around that. What does living a dream lifestyle look like for you? What are your thoughts?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:31:45 35:19 I love that you're bringing this into the conversation because I think we we leave this part out too often and you're right there's been a resurgence so I think first I would say overwork has been really normalized and even glorified as morally good and it undermines empathy, not just with others, but with ourselves, right? And if you're not empathetic with yourself, you're not going to be empathetic with others. So in the book, I write about creating workplace cultures that prioritize humanity, rest, and healing as a way to combat systemic oppression and to prevent burnout. And the power of pause or rest and dreaming is not just essential for self-care, but it's crucial to achieving systemic change and collective liberation. The power of pause and dreaming are not separate. They're not individual strategies. They're interconnected elements of a broader framework for social change. I think they're central and essential. So the intentional act of pausing creates space for self-reflection. And that's essential for growth. It creates opportunities. for building solidarity, for actually seeing and hearing each other, for feeling each other, for building community, for collective care. And similarly, I think the practice of dreaming fuels visions and inspires collective action that help us undo the injustices that we're existing in now. and build a more just and equitable future. And I think that's ongoing. So we always have to dream. Dreaming is integral to creating workplaces and communities that foster collective care. And I keep saying the word collective because if we live in isolation, if we rest in isolation, if we care in isolation, we're missing the bigger part of the picture. We're social animals and We want to live in community so we've got to do this together. So I think both rest and dreaming are vital components are collective liberation, they're essential to our well being at both the individual and the community and the systems level. I love what I do at work. I'm fortunate that I work in a place that's aligned with my personal values, where I can be creative, where I can be bold, and I can even be vulnerable. But I am not just my work. I am not just valuable for my productivity or contributions to the economy. To fully access and respect our own and each other's dignity, I think we have to humanize ourselves and see ourselves and each other as more than workers. you know, producers of widgets and the economy. I think it's it allows us to have true self-empathy and true empathy for each other when we rest and allow ourselves to dream. I think when you invite people, you ask the question of dream, I immediately sort of felt this like smile in my whole body, right? Because we all, I remember being a child and running downstairs and telling my parents about what dream I had the night before. We all have some like, innocent before we were burdened with all these troubles, memory of how sweet dreams could be, imagination could be. And so I love the fact that you all you talk about a dream lifestyle, because I think we cannot move forward, we cannot heal ourselves, unless we really invest in dreaming with each other.

Deneen L. Garrett:35:20 35:55 Absolutely, and I think now is even more important right because things that we're being faced with if we can't dream if we're not dreaming if we're not seeing a better future we're really really doomed right. It's the only way forward. Absolutely. And I love that you brought in the power of the pause because that's something that I used to ask about as well, right? Because we were not resting. We were not taking care of ourselves. We were just going through life. So rest, dream, all the things I love it. So before we wrap, Dr. Gabriela, what would you like to leave the audience with?

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:35:56 36:23 I would say don't beat yourself up if you're not resting and if you're not dreaming. there's always an opportunity to start. Believe me, I'm constantly working. And when you think you got it down, something happens, you're like, Oh, I've got a lot more to learn. I think be kind to yourself, hold yourself to reasonable standards, reach out for help. And pause, just give yourself the gift of pause.

Deneen L. Garrett:36:25 36:34 I love it. I love it. Well, Dr. Gabriela Alcalde, thank you so much for lending your voice on women of color in intimate conversation and enjoy the rest of your day.

Dr. Gabriela Acalde:36:34 36:40 Thank you so much, Sanim. I really enjoyed it. You're welcome. Bye-bye. Bye.