Back Yourself: The Power of Standing in Your Truth ~ with Lildonia Lawrence

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:00 00:58
Yes. Hey, everybody. Okay, we're back women of color and intimate conversation. And today I am talking to somebody across the pond, as they say, we have LaDonna Lawrence, she is checking in from the UK, and I'm at And I'm excited to hear her perspective coming from, again, she's in the UK, her background being a well-being coach, equality and diversity trainer, and a PhD candidate researching Caribbean dance. as a form of resistance. And so we have been talking a lot about rest as resistance and things of that nature. So we're gonna get into the conversation, but I do wanna mention that she's also the author of Back Yourself, A Wellbeing Guide to Healing from Racial Trauma and the host of the Intersections Podcast. So let's get into it. So LaDonya, welcome.

Lildonia Lawrence: 00:59 01:00 Thank you, thank you for having me.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:01 01:41 Oh, absolutely. It's my pleasure to speak with you today. As a matter of fact, I want to shout out, I think the UK is my number one international audience, so. Ooh. Yeah, so we have a treat. Okay, that's exciting. I know, right? And so then Canada's number two, I believe, and then Ukraine. Oh. Yeah, I don't know. Wow. They're like number three, so all righty then. So let's get into the journey of healing. LaDonya, what is your path into well-being and equity work, specifically on BIPOC mental health?

Lildonia Lawrence: 01:42 03:10 Yes, well I've been working in the field for quite a long time and I think from childhood I always knew that I wanted to do something that helped people and I came from a family that had a lot of helpers in it. My mother was a social worker at the time and she was very much like, you know, we're a family that serves, we want to give back, we want to serve the community, so I always kind of had that in my blood. and I did my undergraduate degree in psychology and then I did my postgraduate in coaching and I was teaching dance, doing one-to-one coaching and I was enjoying it but there was a part of me that was distressed by the inequity that I could see in different groups of people, black women and then people of colour as a whole and then really after the pandemic hit, of course, wherever we were, the whole world was silenced. We saw the very, very horrendous murder of George Floyd. We saw police brutality in the States, but also in the UK as well. And that was the thing that really catapulted me to say, I need to make this a focus. And that's when I started working exclusively around wellbeing for BIPOC, people and also doing anti-racism work for allies and for white people who want to understand how they can do more. So it's been quite a journey.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:11 03:27 Yeah, I bet. And so have you noticed a change in your work or how you have to approach your work since the inauguration in the US, right? Because we know, I mean, that's happening to us in the US, but it's actually

Lildonia Lawrence: 03:30 04:12 exactly and it has that ripple effect. Legislation hasn't changed here at the time of recording in the UK although there are whispers but what it has done is made organizations more afraid so it's made them more afraid to do work around DEI or as we call it in the UK, EDI, whatever we want to call it, equity work, people are starting to get more afraid to have those conversations, which is so sad because we got to a place where we were, I felt I was able to be much more open than I hadn't, than I had across my lifetime. So it's, you know, it is a regression of sorts, which is unfortunate.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:13 04:41 Yeah, absolutely. And so now, you know, it makes me kind of think about the title of your book, you know, Back Yourself, right? So I do want to know, you know, where did that come from? You know, what does that mean to you personally and professionally? And then again, just reflection, it's like we're being backed, you know, we're being pushed back to years before, you know, a time in the past, at least that's the attempt, right, to push us back. But what does back yourself mean to you from the perspective of your book?

Lildonia Lawrence: 04:42 06:13 Yes. So my book is based on my years of coaching BIPOC people. So in there it's case studies and stories and also stories from my own life. And I had so many different titles that I was cycling through. And I had a mentoring session with a really well-established author and coach. And she was a white woman. And she said to me, in the UK, the literary field is white, it's middle class and it's middle aged. And a lot of the language that you're using, I'm worried that publishers are not going to resonate with it or understand what you're trying to say with your title. So I went back to the drawing board and said, OK, I'm going to have to be really explicit. And I thought to myself, what do I want the readers to be able to take away or to do after reading this book. And I grew up in London and London, well, if you've got people from the UK or anyone from the US who watches Top Boy, that's the kind of slang that I had and I was like, I want them to back themselves. And I was like, back yourself. And I said it in my very London accent. I was like, that's what I want. I want people to back themselves, stand up for themselves, stand in their truth, and be able to stand in their power. And personally and professionally, to me, there's not that much difference because I was seeing so much workplace bullying for people of color, for black people. that I was like, we need to be able to back ourselves in all scenarios where possible.

Deneen L. Garrett: 06:14 06:34 Yeah. And so, you know, just thinking about that. So, you know, the podcast is to empower Black women, women of color. And, you know, we can be empowered by different ways. Do you feel better about the title that you ended up going with? Do you feel that that was a better choice for you?

Lildonia Lawrence: 06:35 07:41 Yes, I do. And I think what is important is exactly what you said. Everyone has a different way that they back their self. There's no one shoe fits all. So, for example, lots of reflective prompts. and lots of journaling exercises and lots of affirmations because what it might mean for me to back myself is not what it might mean for someone else. So one thing that I don't want people to do, and I say this in the book as well, is feel guilty when they've been a recipient of aggression or harm. sometimes it's not safe for us to speak out or sometimes our situation is compromised or it's not good for our well-being to fight constantly. So sometimes backing yourself and saying I'm going to step away and I'm going to journal tonight or I'm going to take a bath or I'm going to go and speak this through someone who loves me. So it's not about, you know, necessarily always continuing to fight because we as women of colour have had to do that so much. It's finding a way to back yourself that works for you. Yeah.

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:43 08:16 Yeah, absolutely. And so I asked the question because I do want those who are, you know, listening or watching to know that, you know, when someone comes to you and they suggest something to listen to it, right, you know, hear, hear what they're saying, and then you choose and decide what you want to do with it. Like you don't have to think. what they say to you, their recommendation, you don't have to do it. But, you know, to listen to it, because it could be that small voice, you know, giving you a different perspective of something that may work out better, which it did for you in this case. So I definitely want- That's so true.

Lildonia Lawrence: 08:17 08:18 That's so true.

Deneen L. Garrett: 08:18 08:29 Yeah. So let's get into racial trauma and empowerment. So what are some often unseen ways racial trauma affects the well-being of us?

Lildonia Lawrence: 08:30 09:44 Yes, so something that I would consistently hear with the clients that I work with and also everything I talk about I've experienced as a woman of colour is that we have to suppress ourselves. We can't bring our whole self to work and it's just so common and that over years and years and years it has a detrimental effect on self-esteem, on our confidence, on our posture, on our physical health, when you can't be who you are and I think that's the part that's so taken for granted for people who aren't people of colour because they can show up in many ways as their full self in a way that we just can't because we get judged. Maybe our hair or our clothing or our jewellery or our faith, you know, it's a whole thing and when I was just graduating and getting into the work world I would really change my hair. make sure not to wear my big afro out, you know, all of these kind of things, not to wear the jewellery that I wanted to wear and that was a suppression of me and I think that is a really a massive unseen way that the trauma can impact us.

Deneen L. Garrett: 09:45 11:01 Oh, absolutely. And so the whole time, you know, as soon as I asked the question, I'm thinking about hair. Hair is the number one thing that came to mind for me because I'm sure there's probably not one black woman who does not have a hair story, right? You know, and for me, when I was in corporate, And if I were going to events, I have to think about okay, how do I want to wear my hair right there was so much thought putting into how do I want to wear my hair and honestly even still today like i'm no longer in corporate however. To an event next week and i'm thinking. Well, how do I want to wear my hair like I don't want to want to show up in braids, but I do want to, you know, up, because the weather and, you know, and I don't want it into an Afro, you know, unintentionally. So, you know, hair is something that we really put a lot of thought into. And, you know, again, those who are watching or listening, just know that that is real for black women, especially in other women of color, right? Latinas, I know, have is, you know, hair. You want to wear it curly or straight and all those things. So hair is huge. It definitely is. in a way that we are microaggressed often.

Lildonia Lawrence: 11:01 11:20 Exactly. Asked all these questions. You know, you can just be, I'm sure many women of color have just been living their life when someone's reached out and tried to touch a question. It's not acceptable, you know, and it makes us feel like we're, you know, animals in the zoo.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:20 12:11 Yeah. Yeah. Yes, like how dare you know I remember it was a couple years ago, and I was at the airport and I did have my hair in. And it was a piece of art right a look at art right very artistic and this woman said to me like you know she did compliment my hair and she said I think she might even said. it looked like a piece of art, and I appreciated it. And at the same time, it made me feel a way because I'm not on display for you or others, right? So it's like, that's something that we fight with. It's like a duality type thing. It's like, yes, I want people to appreciate it, but why do you appreciate it, right? In what way are you appreciating it? You know what I'm saying? So that's hard for us, and it's something that we have to deal with, right?

Lildonia Lawrence: 12:12 12:57 100% and something that I get asked by allies who come to my training courses is, but they say things like, but I'm just curious and that's how I make connections with people. And what I say is, has that question ever been asked to you? So we don't go up to white people and ask them about their hair. White people have hair extensions too. They have augmentation on their bodies, on their faces, all of these kind of things, but they don't get questions about their body or their appearance or their clothing in the way that women of colour do, whether that's our hair, whether that's a hijab, whether that's cultural attire, they don't get that. So if you don't get that, what gives you the right to ask? And that's something that I always say, have that moment of thought before you ask a question.

Deneen L. Garrett: 12:58 13:16 Yeah, absolutely. And so I definitely do kind of pivot to the allies. But that just reminds me, though, now, like when I'm like reading on social media threads, whatever it is, like we're flipping it. We are starting to say things back, right? Like I read something how people were like clutching their purses.

Lildonia Lawrence: 13:17 13:18 Yeah, yeah.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:18 13:21 Things to them that they've done to us historically.

Lildonia Lawrence: 13:21 13:23 Yeah, yeah, so true.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:24 13:38 It's like, oh my. Yeah, things are changing. Right? Okay, so for allies who truly want to help, you know, what do you recommend to them? Like what type of support or education do you offer?

Lildonia Lawrence: 13:39 14:51 Yes, so I would say always anti-racism or anti-oppression training is always a good base because I have many people in my professional network and personal network who are kind-hearted, usually women but also men too, that really have equity as a core value. But if they haven't done work into understanding the systems of oppression, there's no way that they can fulfill the role of allyship that they want to. So even understanding what racism is, why it was created, understanding their place, their privilege, and their role in the system of harm, and also understanding that every single one of us has the potential to cause harm, and that's okay, we can accept that, and we can just work to be better every day. It's not about shaming yourself, that's about accepting, okay, I probably will cause harm at some point on this journey, I just have to be humble with it, keep learning, keep the education going, and try again next time and say sorry if and when it's necessary. And that's what I try and do with groups that I'm not part of as well, to support and be an ally.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:51 15:11 Yeah, and so do you, Let's see how do I want to do it, do you package it in a way to where it's palatable for them, or do you kind of come, this is what it is, you know how a more direct approach how which which route, do you take.

Lildonia Lawrence: 15:12 16:09 I think I do give a more direct approach, but I try to make it in a way that people understand. And I teach it in a way that it's a collective issue, because racism and the system of white supremacy, although they privilege from it, it doesn't serve them either. To be in a body that is so heavily privileged, that does something to your soul and spirit. To have ancestors who caused so much harm, that does something to your soul and spirit. So for actually for them to undo that generational trauma themselves is actually a really positive thing for them, for their lineage, for their ancestors, as well as for ours. So I really approach it in a way of this is not white people feeling sorry for people of color. It's white people also healing and undoing the work of their ancestors because it's not just our story.

Deneen L. Garrett: 16:09 16:37 And I love the perspective of it's healthy for them. to put it right to to change that because I really never heard that perspective. I have not heard how it has a positive impact on them as well. So yeah, so that's that's very interesting. So I'm sure you read the book. I think it's how to be an anti-racist or something by that Beverly and the end.

Lildonia Lawrence: 16:37 16:37 Yeah.

Deneen L. Garrett: 16:38 17:26 So that was a book that we were able to read at work in the group setting. And I so happened to be the only person of color, the only Black person in my particular group. And it was interesting, right? Because coming from a place of privilege, like most of the sudden, of course they never thought about it. Like one thing I mentioned to them is when it's a Black person or a non-white person who's committed a crime, on the news, they're going to tell you it was a black person. It was a Hispanic person, whatever. They're going to tell you that. But when it's white, they'll tell you because that's the default. And they hadn't realized that. Coming from a place of privilege, why would they?

Lildonia Lawrence: 17:27 18:10 Yes. But also, I would say something that the white community, another reason why it's useful for them to heal is there's a loss of culture there. If we think about the states, White people are, of course, from there. They're Europeans. But the disconnect to European heritage is gone. So something that's really beautiful about our communities and our communities of color is that we do have strong culture, strong heritage, strong ancestry. And we can draw on that. And, you know, we have the path of our ancestors walking with us. But for a lot of the European community, they've lost that. They don't have that. So they're anchorless.

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:10 18:15 Yes. Well, here's the deal. I think they're being they're going to be pushed back into it.

Lildonia Lawrence: 18:15 18:16 Yes.

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:16 18:54 Right. Yeah. And the undoing is to to get it back to a place. And so, like, even in that book, I remember reading a passage where it was an Italian guy and he went to us, you know, like an anti-racist something. And we'll see at one point, you know, how they discriminate against us. Yeah. Right? You know what I'm saying? And so now I'm coming back to that. So everybody's going to end up kind of going into their own, you know, pockets. It's not just, okay, we're against, you know, the Hispanic, Latinos, and, you know, we want to segregate the black folks. They're going to piece that up too. Right? Yes.

Lildonia Lawrence: 18:58 19:13 a hundred percent, which is this, that's a first for the white community that they don't, it's a struggle at the moment, but it's, it's for the greater good because if we all come back to ourselves, we'll be, we'll be a stronger unit.

Deneen L. Garrett: 19:14 19:47 I like that, come back to ourselves and then also to appreciate it and then still the collective, right? To understand that, okay, we, we do have a very similar, or we have the same enemy, if you will. Yes, right in that enemy is is racism and racist primacy and all of those things yeah now we are talking about anti racism and let's get. The equitable system so what's one misconception workplaces have about anti racism training.

Lildonia Lawrence: 19:48 21:12 Yes, I think a lot of workplaces come into it thinking that it's about maybe celebrating. So having Black History Month or in the UK, you know, we'll have like a South Asian festival or East Asian festival and you bring in some food and everyone comes down at their lunch break and has a little chat and that's the end of it. but actually that does, I mean that's a pleasant thing to do in your lunch break, but actually what we need to do is work on policy, is work on, is your workplace a safe place for people of colour to work? Are there processes if there is racism someone can safely report? Are all members of personnel and management trained in anti-oppression? That's really what it's about, the light touch kind of oh we're gonna I don't know have a day where we play Bob Marley and I don't know if eat jerk chicken, it doesn't mean anything. And that's the kind of performative thing I will see again and again and again. So whenever I have a consultation with a workplace, I make sure that they know I'm coming in with a racial justice lens. And by the end of this session, people are gonna understand what racism is, what the myths are, what they can do about it, and how we can show up for each other. It's gonna be really clear.

Deneen L. Garrett: 21:13 22:05 Yeah. So the equity piece, and that's what you heavily lean into, right? Because you're wanting the systems and all of those things, like you said, policy. And so that's where the equity comes in. And there is a place for what you talked about. And so that's what falls up under the employee resource groups, the affinity groups. That's part of what we're doing, thus celebrating, because we do want to celebrate. and safe places, and having a safe place is a place where we are celebrating our cultural heritage and things of that. And then there's the equity work. So everything has its place, right? But yeah, so you're making it clear that, hey, this is what I'm coming to do. These are the things that we want to accomplish because we do want it to be equitable. And so this is the work that's required.

Lildonia Lawrence: 22:06 22:30 Exactly, like the event and the joy and the fun is the next level up, but we need the base. If people of color don't feel comfortable in this working environment, we're not going to enjoy the Black History Month celebration. So let's not start with that. Let's start with creating a safe base, a safe environment, and then we can celebrate. There's a bypassing.

Deneen L. Garrett: 22:30 23:44 Now do you look at, so for me, I look at it as it's an and. I believe that we can do both at the same time. I get where you're coming from, right? Because it could just be performative if we're just celebrating, but we're not doing anything else, right? Exactly. I agree with you. It needs to be both. Yeah, I agree that it does need to be both. And I do feel that it does need to be heavily towards equity piece, because I'm just thinking about, in my experience, it's like, yeah, we love it. And yes, our company, we were, you know, number one on this, we got 100% on the human resources, you know, campaigns survey. However, I don't necessarily feel safe. I don't necessarily feel this, that, and the other. So yeah, I think that it's an and, and that we are next. So we have visitors here. My cats are like all over the place. Like they want their, they want their time, but no. So it's, but we definitely need to lean into the equity. Okay. So let's move to movement as resistance. So you're researching Caribbean dance as resistance. How does that become part of your academic and wellness journey?

Lildonia Lawrence: 23:45 25:08 Well, I was very blessed to experience carnival in the UK, Notting Hill Carnival, which is the biggest Caribbean carnival outside of the Caribbean itself. And it's a massive, massive part of the British Caribbean culture. And my mum's from Barbados, and I just always grew up listening to the music, being involved in carnival, enjoying it. And as I delved deeper and deeper into it, as I got older and started understanding the history of Caribbean dance, specifically what's called mass masquerade, I learned more and more about how it was a response to enslavement and how, you know, our ancestors were forbidden from speaking their language, playing their music and reveling. And the African enslaved people found a way to reclaim their movement and dance through carnival. And I've always found that really beautiful. Same in other places, you know, New Orleans and things like that and I wanted to delve deeper into it and the opportunity presented itself and now I'm really studying the ancestral story of carnival and how us in the diaspora also use it as a form of resistance.

Deneen L. Garrett: 25:09 25:42 Nice, I love that. I love that you're doing that and that you're, you know, pulling those pieces together. That's your next book? Yes, probably. I got to get through this doctorate first. Right, right, right. You will have already laid the groundwork and you can just say, you know, your dissertation and everything. Let's go ahead. On a different level. So what is, so tell me a little bit more about the connection between the healing and the heritage. So what are you finding?

Lildonia Lawrence: 25:42 27:09 Yes, I'm finding so many different things. I'm finding that dance can be a way to express your lived reality. So, for example, with Caribbean, Afro-Caribbean dance, there are characters that the ancestors used to play. Some would be acting out what they were experiencing in a negative way and some would be making fun and mockery at the enslavers and others would be about connecting to their spirit. And I've seen that across the diaspora. I see, you know, for example, in the Middle East, Dubka and those dance and movement practices are the form of resistance. I see it with the indigenous communities in what's known as the States now. And all of these different cultures have movements that were about either connecting to spirit, either resisting, you know, colonialism or resisting harm and connecting to culture. And I think it's so important to retain that and also witness that for each other. So I love For example, seeing like the Maori people of New Zealand do the haka and I get chills watching their indigenous movement. And so I really think there's something beautiful about all of us, like learning our own heritage, but then also learning from each other.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:09 27:16 Yeah, and so like what you're saying is it's it's an act of joy and justice, right?

Lildonia Lawrence: 27:17 27:49 Exactly, because not every day do we need to be in pain. Do we need to be angry? Do we need to be sad? Also, being in our joy is one of the biggest acts of resistance that we can have. And if anyone here hasn't been to a Caribbean carnival, I highly recommend that all over Europe and the state and Canada as well. It's joy. It's pure. You can't leave that without being happy. You'll probably have to take care of your knees and your feet and everything else because you'll be dancing non-stop.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:51 28:20 Yeah, I definitely need to make sure that I attend. I'm feeling like, I don't know that I have. I'm probably just, you know, remembering something that actually didn't happen, but I feel like I'm in New Orleans and was part of something where they were throwing out beads, but I think I'm part out. Like, I think I was just on the back streets and they were just throwing it from the top, but not, you know, not the carnival. Oh, you know what? I've been to Carabana. That's what it is.

Lildonia Lawrence: 28:20 28:22 Oh, exciting. Yes.

Deneen L. Garrett: 28:23 28:34 I'm like, I'm remembering something. I love that. So now let's move into legacy power in community. So what does empowerment look like to you right now?

Lildonia Lawrence: 28:40 29:26 for me personally is speaking my truth but with kindness and living out my core values. So one thing that's really important to me with this anti-racism work is not is coming at it from a place of non-harm where possible. So I don't want to attack anyone or shame anyone for not knowing how to be anti-racist. I didn't know at one point and I'm still learning new things every day. So for me it feels very empowering to approach this work from a place of compassion and kindness and we're all learning and I really want to, you know, still move forward in that way and that makes me feel very, very empowered.

Deneen L. Garrett: 29:28 29:35 And so what is community healing versus like personal healing and why is, why is it just as critical?

Lildonia Lawrence: 29:38 30:23 It's just as critical because a united people are a strong people. So when we come together against injustice, we can do way more than we can alone. But if we're feeling broken and unhappy and unhealthy, we're not going to be able to give to the unit. So it's that symbiotic relationship between, you know, looking after ourselves so we can look after others, looking after others so we can look after ourselves. And I truly believe that's the way forward, which is why I do love to work with allies as well and my friends who are allies, because we need literally all of us on this healing journey, on this anti-racism journey, I believe.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:24 31:57 Yeah, absolutely. And community is huge right now. It seems like in a pre-recording I've had, we're talking about community. And again, the situation that we're in is pushing us into community, right? So if you're not leaning into the collective, to your sisterhood and family, whatever, we definitely need to, right? Because it is that us versus them. It's truly that, right? We didn't ask for it, but it is here. And so we do have to find a way to resist, the various ways to resist and coming to community, because we shouldn't be doing it alone, right? We need that, we need others. And I also wanted to say, when we were talking about dancing and joy and whatnot, like right now, ever since the election, Black women have been leaning into rest, right? We have been, we're like, you know what? we put in the work we tried to you know so look okay we're done like we're gonna go yeah we're gonna go up garden you know like yeah they're growing things and we're dancing and and we're getting in community and loving on one another and reclaiming so much of what we've lost and learning about ourselves, and so we are definitely doing that. Now, hosting intersections, I know it's brought many powerful moments, but what's one that stayed with you?

Lildonia Lawrence: 31:58 33:19 One that stayed with me which I mentioned in my book actually I had a lovely lovely man on there called Anthony Chang and he's mixed East Asian and white British and he's been grew up in South Africa, New Zealand and the UK. and he talked about when he went back home to uh to East Asia he thought because everyone would look like him he would instantly fit in and he realized oh wait I'm an outsider here and that's an issue that so many of us experience um so as I mentioned obviously my mom is from Barbados but my dad he's African American and If I was to go back to Africa now, I mean there's a sense of connection but it's not exactly home. I'm in the UK, it's not exactly home. So having that brought to light of we're all actually experiencing a bit of displacement, actually makes you realize you're not the only one. And then when you bring that into the light, we can start thinking about, okay, how do I feel at home within myself so that I don't have to worry so much about not fitting in here or there or there because I feel at home in myself. So that was like a really powerful moment in the series for me.

Deneen L. Garrett: 33:19 33:48 I love that. And that's another thing that I really promote as well as it starts with you. right, getting in touch with you, loving on you, getting to know you, in touch and tune all those things right first before you, or an and, but more so getting in touch with you so that you can appreciate the outside, the external world, but being grounded and whatnot. So what's one wellness practice you can't live without?

Lildonia Lawrence: 33:50 34:25 Movement. Movement. It means everything to me. Even on days if I'm not feeling well or I'm tired, it might be something as simple as just laying on my yoga mat and just moving my body from side to side. But on days when I really want to get that joy, you know, I will be, well, as we say in the Caribbean, on the road. I'll be on the road. I'll be dancing. I'll be moving. I'll be moving my waist. If I need to connect with God, I'll be moving slowly. I'll be moving in prayer. Whatever it is, I will be moving.

Deneen L. Garrett: 34:26 35:32 And so when you said that I'm for those who are watching on those who are listening, I grinned because I can sit for hours and just watch TV and hours, hours, hours. So there's often I'm not moving that much. However, today I was out and yeah, right. It's a beautiful day here. Finally. And I was walking and I'm like, oh my God, I feel so good. I'm glad to be moving. I even got stressed a little bit. So yeah, the movement is great. And I can incorporate more movement even while watching, right? Like I can stand up. Yeah. I don't. But I can, and so I do want to impress that upon those who are listening and watching. You can move, like even if you're a person who like, oh, I'm watching TV, stand up for a bit. I had read- Stand up for a minute. Yeah, I read something the other day that, you know, you sit for 30 minutes, you should walk for five. And you have to go outside. No, you can just walk around the house. You can walk around in circles. The point is to move.

Lildonia Lawrence: 35:33 35:40 Yes. And it always makes us feel better. There's rarely a time when you move and it feels like a bad idea afterwards.

Deneen L. Garrett: 35:40 35:46 You're right. You're absolutely right. So what's a quote, mantra or book that keeps you grounded?

Lildonia Lawrence: 35:48 36:16 My book, of course, is Tricia Hersey, Rest is Resistance. And that book changed my life. It changed my life because it allowed me to rest. It allowed me to accept that rest is okay. And with Tricia's work, she says in there, you know, rest for your ancestors who couldn't. And as someone who enjoys giving, I was like, yes, this is a way that I can rest guilt-free because I'm doing it for them.

Deneen L. Garrett: 36:18 36:31 That's deep. You know what? I just remembered. So I was in London in December and I went to Tate Modern and they had an exhibit, Zanele Muholi. Yes.

Lildonia Lawrence: 36:31 36:31 Yeah.

Deneen L. Garrett: 36:31 37:06 Okay. And so when you leave, there was labeling that rest is resistance. And it just expressed that they had created a space for you to rest because after going through exhibit, it was kind of, it could be heavy, right, because the exhibit was focused on the South African LGBTQ plus community. And, you know, and just about some things, you know, having to go through and just Again, it could be heavy, so they created a place to rest afterwards.

Lildonia Lawrence: 37:07 37:09 I love that, that we need more of that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 37:09 37:22 Yeah, absolutely. So we are about to wrap, but before we, first of all, are we going to see Beyonce or what? Like, I'm trying to find a friend in the UK who wants to go. Like, what's happening?

Lildonia Lawrence: 37:22 37:24 I chose Usher over Beyonce this year, unfortunately.

Deneen L. Garrett: 37:26 37:50 I know. Oh my goodness. Anyway, well, I'll probably be back for Beyonce. Let me know. My one and only concert or one and only time seeing Beyonce live was in the UK at Tottenham for Renaissance. So yeah, I'll be back to see her. But before we wrap, what's one thing you want to leave the audience with?

Lildonia Lawrence: 37:52 38:03 You've got this. I believe that you can back yourself. There's going to be down days. There's going to be up days, but overall you have the power.

Deneen L. Garrett: 38:04 38:11 Love it. Well, LaDonya Lawrence, thank you for lending your voice on women of color and intimate conversation and enjoy the rest.

Lildonia Lawrence: 38:11 38:15 Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

Deneen L. Garrett: 38:15 38:17 My pleasure. Goodbye. Bye.