Shifting from DEI to Intentional Inclusion with Kelli Lester

00:02 00:29 Deneen L. Garrett:
Well, hello everybody and happy New Year's. Welcome to 2025 and we are in for a ride. So buckle up. Today's guest is Kelly Lester. She is a co-founder and partner of Onyx Rising, a change management consulting firm specializing in individual team and organizational behavior transformation. Kelly, tell us three things that you want our audience to know about you.

00:31 01:58 Kelli Lester: Thank you so much for having me on. I would say number one that I live this work. When it comes to what historically we've been calling diversity, equity and inclusion in our firm we're calling inclusive leadership and innovation. And so I love this work. I live this work. And I don't usually say this, but I call DEI love in the workplace. So I really think it's about my calling. So I guess that would be the second thing, that I live this work. It's my calling. I was doing it before it was popular and as it has evolved in terms of name changes. and how we position it. And then I guess thirdly, I see my, I had two visions throughout my evolution of this work. The first one was I felt that I needed to be a voice for the voiceless, which is what led me in the work. And then after spending many years, presumably with the choir, as we often call it, I started to realize that in order to truly change the world, right, and to do it in an expedited manner, I had to begin to spend more time with people that were in the majority to help them truly understand how to lead people that look and behave and have different styles than what they do. And so that became the mantra of teaching the teachers changing the world.

01:59 03:23 Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah. And you know what? We have a lot of similarities. So I actually was in diversity and inclusion in corporate for a number of years. And just like you, it was my call and it was my purpose and my passion. And I would tell people that I was being paid to passionately pursue my purpose. And so it has evolved over the years. Like I'm no longer in corporate, but I'm still doing the work. I'm just doing it differently. The reason I started my podcast, it actually was a panel for one of the diverse segments that I supported, a conference, and I had created the panel to give women a platform to use their voices. So we're in sync when it comes to this. So the name of this episode is Shifting from DEI to Intentional Inclusion, which you just mentioned the shift. And I want to talk about that. So let's kind of talk about, and right before we started recording, I said when I was looking at your topics and whatnot, I knew that they were created, initiated, before now. And when I say now, meaning the attack really on DEI, right? And I think that, and you tell me your perspective, I think a lot of folks when they hear DEI, that they just automatically hear Black. Yeah. And the attack is on Black folks.

03:24 06:29 Kelli Lester: Yeah, I would say black people, black and brown people, people of color for sure. And so I agree with you. There is a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions around what it is. And many times we see and feel the resistance, both historically and even today. based on the fact people feeling like they're being left out or they're not included. This is going to, you know, we're hearing today in Indiana that they want to shift it from DEI to merit, right? But we're not really looking at the core of, well, how are we defining good? Because if good only includes a small number of people, right, then what does that really mean? But I believe people will not and organizations will not really connect to the work of historically called DEI. until there is a personal and an organizational with them. So the personal is the weapon, what's in it for me. And the organizational with them really is the business case or the value proposition. And I think In the beginning, this is just my opinion, I think we tried to make DEI everything to everyone. So the DEI officer or chief diversity officer was getting a phone call about everything. I don't care anything happening externally was falling on his or her desk. And it may not really have anything to do with DEI. So I think as we refine, reframe, the title or involve of what we call it, we're going to need to refine it for our organization. So you need to have a unique business case. So for example, I'm working with a lot of financial services companies. Not all of those companies have been on this journey that long. As a matter of fact, I used to call it that they'd been late to the party, unless you were some of the really big ones, right? And in that effort, what I've noticed with a few clients not only are they having trouble connecting and hiring and getting interns, right, for women or people of color, but they're really struggling to even recruit young people, period. So if we think about what you can't do, we're going to continue to get a wall and a door closed on us. But if we think about what we can do, you can really begin to couch this undergenerational diversity, right? and begin to look at the diversity within the diversity. So when I say that, I mean, there's not one black experience, right? But many people think that it is, especially if they aren't black. So we have to help our organizations and help other people understand that we're not a monolith, right? That we are layered dynamic people and our organizations need just as much strategic thinking around how we frame why we are going after DEI in any capacity that's connected to our business case, that's connected to how we drive business or how we grow our business.

06:30 07:15 Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, and I also kind of think that a lot of the companies who are, you know, we're seeing are like, oh, they're doing away with it. I kind of think, whether they are doing away with it, you know, and it's become public or not, I think that it's really like what we're talking about, a shift, like they're not really going away from the work that they do under DEI, they're just renaming it. Because of the attack, because of the people, you know, they're attacking specifically DEI, you know, they expect that, you know, it's probably the D, the D and the E is really what's under attack, right? So they're like, okay, cool. We'll just go ahead and couch this as inclusion and still do what we were doing. Just to be more palatable for people.

07:15 09:08 Kelli Lester: Without a doubt. And I think that if you're leading change in these organizations, you have to be very, very mindful about who you're talking to and then what messages you pull out your back pocket to communicate it. So for example, if I'm talking to an employee that's not a leader and I'm giving all these organizational benefits, they don't care. Right. So we have to really think about who we're talking to and what matters. Similarly, if you're talking to the CFO versus the CHRO, you need to change your messaging. The other component I've been talking a lot about is the carrot or the stick. So if this has value and how your culture or organization views the topic, might be, hey, if we do this, we will reach more markets, we will sell more products, we will be more innovative, we will attract and retain talent. That is the carrot. The stick, on the other hand, is if we don't do this, we will lose market share. We will not be able to attract talent. And that financial services company, they literally have about five more years and their entire senior leader staff will be gone because they haven't been looking at investing in younger talent. And so I think it's how do we reframe and many of the practitioners that I have been supporting, they need support on how to tell that story, right? And so that's an important component. So I always thank God for my 10 years in communication because it really helped to set the stage to talk the right language to the right audiences. So having that background or bringing in some support on that is helpful organizationally. individually, and that's a whole nother conversation. How do I feel attacked personally? That's another conversation in that, that I would love to have with you as well.

09:09 09:54 Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? So what you said, and the thing about it is, what people also don't understand is how it is interconnected. And when you mentioned the generational right there, the young talent, young talent do, or young people do respect people, companies that do good. And do good is, Being conscious and aware that people are different, there are you know there are black people, there are brown people, there are you know there's different people in when you respect that they young people. they take notice. And so that's another thing that they're not getting that connecting that, that you know what, they're not coming to you because you just dismantled your DEI. They're not gonna come to you now.

09:54 10:36 Kelli Lester: Yeah, exactly. And we saw this, speaking of generational diversity. So my son is 26 and I have literally watched him and even almost advised him in some cases I'm like, hey, you know, a job, you know, they're looking for you to do something. It's like an agreement, right? You come in, you do the job, they pay you. If you get a great boss, an inclusive leader, a great culture, that's a plus. Now you have a choice, right? You can go to another culture or an organization that's more in line with who you are, but are they required to do that? And that had been my mindset.

10:36 10:37 Deneen L. Garrett: Yes.

10:37 10:41 Kelli Lester: And I watched him quit jobs because he said, I'm not taking it.

10:42 10:42 Deneen L. Garrett: Right.

10:42 12:20 Kelli Lester: I'm not going to stand for that kind of behavior. And he found a company and a culture that was a better fit. I see other young people going to the side hustles, the side hustles becoming the main hustle. So the thing I'm really getting at is talent, regardless of their race, expect, young talent expects diversity. And I think we have to put ourselves in the mindset of what was it like? So when I picked up my son from kindergarten class, I knew then we were getting ready to have a very diverse workforce in a short amount of time. And now this generation, depending on where they live and their experiences, they're used to teams. they've seen the they don't know anything else they don't know anything else and when they don't see it they're checking their own companies on it so not only are they going not going to those organizations if they are going they're demanding a different kind of environment and culture and they they're it's not just people of color expecting to see diversity or to see inclusive practices. We have people of all backgrounds that are used to this. And so that's what a lot of companies are challenged with. They're not interested. And they also even want you to be good corporate citizens. So who you give to, where you volunteer. So younger people are, and automatically the younger generations are more diverse racially. So I think we're going to begin to see more shifts Yes, in that in that trend of companies either changing and evolving, or maybe they won't exist, maybe it will be another blockbuster.

12:21 12:40 Deneen L. Garrett: Right, absolutely. And you know what, and so you know what you were just saying, we've seen it on campuses. They've communicated to us what they will and will not stand for. So if these corporations, you know, you need to decide which side you want to be on if you want to stay in business, right? That's right.

12:40 14:03 Kelli Lester: And that really, while you ask me, what do I want people to know? Three things. I think the thing about our firm that's different, if you will, on this topic, and no offense to any DEI practitioner, that is really focused in on one dimension or wants to focus in on justice, there's a place for that. And we need everyone sitting in every role, the podcasters like yourself that keep the agenda front and topic front of mind. But our approach to the work is the business case, right? Like how DEI connects to driving and growing your business or achieving your mission. And so I really look at it like that. Otherwise, we're a business. So why should we be doing it if it's not connected? So that's our approach. It doesn't mean that I don't do education and different topics around, you know, for example, intersectionality, which is a very important topic when it comes to women of color in particular. But it's what the company or organization needs based on where they are in their journey. And I'm finding more people are in this need of, talking about it through introverts, extroverts, before we start talking about race. So there's a time and a place to address it. And you have to see the readiness level of that organization. And it starts with leadership.

14:03 15:35 Deneen L. Garrett: And that's so key, right? The readiness level, where they are, what they need. Because I remember years ago, and this is, we definitely were not ready for these conversations, but I don't know what was going on and why, you know, they did this, but we did come together. right, as a work group to have conversations. Well, those conversations, it's like, okay, so you're putting us in the room, and you want us to really talk about these things, which we're not at a point to talk about these things, because if I tell you really how I feel, And then you don't respect that and whatnot. I still have to work with you. Yeah. Right. So, you know, so it wasn't set up for that at that time. So you got a lot of people who probably didn't, you know, we just went through the motions, right. And then fast forward 15, 20 years, you know, now we're, you know, now it's open or you have people who are intentional, like you, your organization to say, okay, let us actually look at what this specific company organization business unit, what do they need as opposed to how you said with black folks is not a monolith right. So the podcast is focused on women, women of color as individuals, I do love this conversation that we're having about the. the organizations, right? And so I wanna talk more about that in the intentional inclusion, and then we will get into the individual next. So talk to us more about the intentional inclusion and what you're doing around that.

15:36 19:32 Kelli Lester: Yeah, thank you for that question. And I think it evolves from the evolution of DEI to where we are today, right? So I wanna pause for a moment and kind of take us back. And for those that were alive, and those that maybe don't recall, we started as a United States to address the fact that people could not get in organizations and so affirmative action, you know, kind of came about. And then, okay, we've got people in organizations, but then they were unable to move up. And so then we really started looking at what they called at the time, I think, diversity management, right? So we went from EEO, affirmative action EEO, diversity management, and now we're really looking at it as the power, if you will, of inclusion. What I would like to say is that you can't just automatically have diversity and think you're going to have inclusion. So intentional inclusion really is about being proactive about embedding inclusion into your processes and your programs and Even embedding and then I would say going to this stage of integration. So if you have manager training managers are now managing diverse teams, and they're struggling different age groups different backgrounds remote. Not to mention race and gender. So how do we really equip those leaders to do that effectively, and they need to embody that as part of how we expect them to behave. So I'm working with a lot of clients on their leadership behaviors and their organizational values and embedding inclusion into those. And so that it's not enough to just do a training, right? It's a, we have to embed this into our expectations of how we want leaders to behave. I used to work at Sara Lee and I got an opportunity to work for a female CEO, which was amazing. And at the time they were moving their, all of their small, they had grown through acquisition and had different offices operating independently throughout the country. They even own everything from food products to coach to champion, everything. So in this process, they were moving all of their leadership to the headquarters. And I had a great conversation with this leader. And one of the things she left me with and we started to coin throughout the next few years is the what and the how. So the what would be your goals and objectives as an individual. But if you achieve those and you left their bodies in the way, you didn't look at how you treated people. So we looked at that as the how and started holding leaders accountable to both. So you could no longer get your bonus if you did not get a good review relative to how you were demonstrating those behaviors. And I think that really puts money where the mouth is, right, in terms of what we expect. But too many organizations are actually saying, okay, just achieve your objectives, we'll keep promoting you. We won't highlight inclusive leadership, we just highlight the numbers. And I think that's a culture shift that really needs to happen. So intentional inclusion really is about embodying As a leader inclusive leadership traits so we put out a course called the seven inclusive leadership traits, one of them is being self aware, another one is amplifying diverse voices and managing inclusively hiring a diverse team. So all of those elements are in there, because I believe strongly is that when our leaders who are making the majority of the decisions truly understand how to be intentionally inclusive, then our cultures will become more inclusive. Our teams will be more diverse and welcoming of different styles and perspectives. But right now, if I only see good as the way I do it, then we're going to continue to see that exclusion.

19:33 20:56 Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, and so the company that I worked for, we kind of did a shift similar to that. So I'm gonna ask this question, because I feel it's an and, right? There was also like several years ago, we were looking at naming, we were looking at what did we want to lead with inclusion. And so I did the benchmarking on that. And I think at the time, maybe there was one company that did have inclusion as their, their main. And I kind of, you know, did not recommend that we did go with just inclusion, because what happens and we've seen it, and you know, you mentioned civil rights and everything. And we're talking about black folks, it's like, when things are done that are to benefit us, others benefit more. And then it's kind of pushes us to the wayside. So my thinking is that if we got away from the diversity piece, if we start forgetting about people and individuals, that we're kind of like right back to where we were. So I always wanted to center diversity. So asking you in your work within, let's say the last year, since they struck down affirmative action, what have you noticed? Like what is really seeming to work in general? Because again, we just talked about how different you have to meet their needs, but just in general, what is something that you feel really made a difference, is making a difference?

20:57 24:58 Kelli Lester: Yeah, well, the two things that I think have made the biggest difference, and I'm going to speak more specifically relative to leaders. So I guess the short answer is, is if you're not having this conversation at the top of the house, you will see little or minimal change. So it's not that it cannot happen, but you see it in pockets and you won't see it overall. Or you see the rug being pulled underneath, right? The budget being gone because you didn't have the appropriate buy-in or you're not having a conversation at the right level. So I think what works with executives is helping them align their head, heart, and their hands. So for me, the head is the business case, the why should I even care? Because they may not care in the same way that you and I would, but they do care about the bottom line and they're accountable to the bottom line. And so when we make that connection around the value proposition or the business case, then you can at least get their attention to it. The second thing that I think works in that same context connected to the heart is that it's got to be personalized. It can't be that the HR person or the DEI person is just telling the story. If we don't have people that are on the executive team speaking out and advocating about individual talent or diversity and equity and inclusion, then it really is just window dressing. And so one of the ways that I try to do that is make sure that leaders find their voice on the topic. I typically do a quarterly series with executives, but more specifically, and with homework in between each series, and it's usually embedded in their existing meetings. So these are conversations. They're not set up as trainings. I'm not talking at them. We're having a conversation. And I really engage them on how they define it and let them answer the question around how can this help drive business goals and objectives. But the next thing I really go into is, are you exposing yourself to difference and then what might be your privilege and then where you can be an ally. And so one of the stories that I think will answer this quickly is when I had a leader that really wasn't bought into the topic at all. Me and the DEI practitioner kept going back and forth and she was like, he's really not bought in. I think he's a naysayer. These are the kinds of questions I'm getting from him. And I said, well, his questions are trying to really validate why we should even invest in this. I later learned that his daughter recently entered the workforce. And that became the pivot for him. And once we can start to make a connection with this topic where it was personal, and he started to see the challenges she was having in being hired, the teams that she was being on, the organizations that she was connected to, then he started to see the topic very differently. So we had to go into the door of women in order to open him up on all dimensions of diversity. So in short, you have to have the business case, number one, the head and the numbers connected to it. You have to have the heart, that connection or tug on our heartstrings that is meaningful for me personally. And I have to find my voice on it to do that. And then I think lastly, now we can get to the work, right? Because once I've done that, then I can be the executive sponsor for the Women's Network. I can actually advocate and do a diverse reverse mentoring program or want to support women. But until I make that heart connection, you know, it's a little bit more of a I'm just kind of going along to get along. And now with the external climate, there's less reason for me to do that. If anything, there's more reason for me to be a naysayer than it is to be a supporter.

24:59 27:02 Deneen L. Garrett: You know what? And I love this approach. I absolutely do love this approach because you are correct. Often they don't care for whatever reasons, right? For numerous reasons, they don't, right? And if it's not forced, you know, it's been forced upon them, right? In a lot of situations. And so for your being intentional about intentional inclusion, really, I can see that making a difference, right? Connecting with that individual, finding, it's what I do when I had teams and with individuals getting to know them, to know what makes them tick and to be able to motivate them through something that's personal to them. So if, you know, if I see that working in that scenario, then it absolutely would work in the scenario working with executives. And it does start from the top. I tell people often I, you know, Melody Hobson, she is, she is the co- Yeah, area investments right so billion dollar management assets, etc. And she, you know, she told of a situation where a company was looking to hire, they needed to replace an executive. And the CEO wanted a person of color. I don't know if it was specifically black, but they wanted a person of color. And so staffing came back and said, oh, we can't find anybody. So the CEO said, well, we're going to leave this role vacant until you do. And then magically they did right because it, you know, in this particular case, like you said, it comes from top down the top doesn't buy into it if top doesn't see it as a priority, then it's easy for those in that chain, not to write so it definitely had so with your approach. you know, you have to get to them to find out, okay, how do I get them to understand that this is important, this is a value, this, you know, this would make a difference for them. So I appreciate your approach.

27:03 27:46 Kelli Lester: Once we move from the executive level, and just because you were right on point, Daneen, it is seeing people uniquely for who they are. So when I talk to leaders and managers, I'm really looking at, are you coaching, developing, and leading that person uniquely based on their aspirations and motivations? Or are you leading them based on what worked for you, based on what worked 10 years ago? Because we need leaders that are looking at the future. So we have to lead and adapt in our style of leadership. It is no longer command and control. I no longer need to have the answers. So empowering a workforce means you got to get to know them. Absolutely.

27:46 27:57 Deneen L. Garrett: Absolutely. Let me ask this question. Is there something that you fear? So with where we are today, is there something that scares you in this work?

27:58 30:35 Kelli Lester: Yeah, for me, no, but a lot of that has to do with my faith, right? And my own personal life experiences. It's like, what can you do to me now? Like, I'm a person that kind of operates with a little bit of no fear, hair on fire, run to the problem. I've been that way my entire life. So I don't mind looking foolish, even trying, right? And so, but my fear is maybe more for the broader African-American female and females in general. Because I've created this thing, I call it the protection of peace. Because before I step on a phone call, go into the office, I need to be thinking about what's going on externally and how that might impact me. People don't know that you and I are great people. right? They just see possibly a Black woman walking down the street, right? So it's important that we actually, one, continue to affirm ourselves. Two, build community and make connections with each other because we do need to know who our allies are, right? So I do have that fear for us in terms of protection. And then I would say the last thing is how do we become disciplined about that practice? of continuously affirming ourselves. I was a part of a conversation and I can't take credit for this model, but an older black female mentor gave this to another friend of mine. And one of the things she said is she said, we have to understand what lies we have told ourself and believed, right? And that goes even for today. So historical lies and today, right? I would add today. And then we have to really create and find wisdom, which is really translation, find an affirmation that disputes that lie. And then we have to tell her and almost unlearn, right? Or retrain our brains, right? Because we have to go in, and as I would say, being a Christian with the full armor, right? You know, we have to go on with the full armor. And I don't know if Black women or women in particular are really understanding how the external climate might be impacting us. And based on that, how do I now show up at work? How do I now be more mindful of my safety as I go walking about the streets? Because we can't live in fear, right? But we do have to be more mindful of how do we protect ourselves? How do we protect our energy? How do we protect our career? How do we protect our families? How do we protect our bodies?

30:36 32:00 Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, absolutely. So, a firm community discipline right those are like the three main things and so we're going to shift into and you kind of already took us there, but how, how do women of color black women thrive. Today, right. And so these are some of the ways affirming get those affirmations that combat the lives that you told yourself, make sure you're in community which is definitely something that I'm really focused on right now, and the discipline in ourselves right to stay true to that thing that we're working on we're doing. Something that I've heard people talk about and that aligns with the discipline is protecting our health, physical health like work, make sure we're working out and whatnot. And I saw so many people you know post about that workout workout and you know initially I'm like, okay, like, What is this? But then as others kind of expounded on it, I'm like, oh, it absolutely makes sense, right? You know what? We're in a fight, if you will, or could be put into a fight. So we have to be the protection and the peace like you talked about, but we have to be prepared, right? And a way to prepare is being physically well, right? And that's also to help you to stave off disease and whatnot. So it's so much that we do need to focus on. So anything else you want to add with that? Yeah.

32:01 34:18 Kelli Lester: So it's funny because, of course, consultants, we like creating models. And so as I had created this, I call it a practitioner protection of peace. I had originally created this model for DEI practitioners because a lot of people are bringing their woes to us. And to the point you made, de-stress was a big part of that. So meditation, yoga, exercise. But because of this particular podcast and the work you're doing, the one ad, there's a documentary out. I saw it a few months ago. It's called Death of a Superhero. Let me make sure I get this right. It's called the black woman death of a superhero syndrome. So I guess the ad I have is black women in particular have historically carry a lot or a lot of people. And we've been almost, we get a stereotype of being the strong Black woman, essentially. And I mean, I don't want to take away from the documentary. I encourage everybody to try to watch it. But it's really something that Black women didn't even know they had, right? I didn't even know there was a thing called that. And it's almost just been inbred in us from generation to generation. not just taking care of other people's children, but then taking care of our own, taking care of our men, taking care of our children. So it really then bleeds into the office where we become that. I do this exercise and every time I show black women People say, oh, there's two sides. People see her as strong, and then other people are like, I feel sorry. I wouldn't want to have all those different knocks against me, in air quotes, right? So I do think this superwoman, superhero syndrome is plaguing us. And we're trying to use thinking self-care as getting our nails done. And that's not sustainable. So there is a need to do something sustainable in terms of self-care or to remove it altogether, right? Like what do we need to stop doing, start doing and maybe continue doing might be a good ad to begin to address this. But I would say death of the superhero would be huge for us.

34:19 34:54 Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, I think that what I see right across social media is that our takeaway from the results of the election is that, okay, we're resting, we bow out, you got this. Like we try, we put in the work. We've been as always, as per usual. And you know what, we're tired, we're exhausted, we're done. So we're focused on other things. We're journaling, we're meditating. We are getting our nails done. We're doing things for us. It's about us individually and collectively. And that's where we are now. So before we wrap, what would you like to leave the audience with?

34:56 35:37 Kelli Lester: I just would love to ask everyone that listens to your podcast to not consider putting yourself first, being selfish, because we're needed. We're needed in our homes, in our communities. And there's nothing really even better than your presence. It's needed in your organizations as well. And that if you wanna make contact with me and my organization, please reach out to us at www.onyx2rise.com. That's O-N-Y-X the number two, R-I-S-E.com. And we look forward to supporting you navigating that change.

35:37 35:56 Deneen L. Garrett: Thank you for that. And yes, so your information will be in the show notes. So you all can get, if you didn't get it from her, you'll be able to see it in the show notes. So Kelly Lester, thank you so much for lending your voice on women of color and intimate conversation and enjoy the rest of your day.

35:56 35:58 Kelli Lester: Thank you, Deneen. Thanks for having me.

35:58 35:59 Deneen L. Garrett: You're welcome.