Harmony: Cultivating Inner Peace with Jackie Gouché

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:02 00:14 This week's guest is Jackie Gouche, the mother of DeSmoke, Englewood Sir, and Davion Farris, all Grammy-nominated artists. Jackie, tell us more about you.
Jackie Gouché: 00:15 01:02 Well, I come from a musical family. My mother was a musician. She played in church. My brother, Andrew Goucher, is one of the pioneers of bass playing, gospel bass playing. And he's played for many, many greats in the industry. And he introduced me to Andre and Sandra Crouch. So my career started as a background singer for Andre Crouch many, many years ago. And since then, I've had the pleasure of singing background for the likes of Diana Ross, Stevie Wonder, Chaka Khan, Michael Jackson, Tina Turner, Patti LaBelle, and many others. So I've had a pretty, a wonderful career. And for the past 30 years, I have been the minister of music at my church in Englewood. So music is my life and it's the life of my family, clearly, because you see who my son's like.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:02 01:13 Absolutely, absolutely. And so Englewood actually was just sharing his story with, so are you familiar with Dwayne Edwards of Pencil?

Jackie Gouché: 01:13 01:13 No.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:13 02:21 Okay, so Dwayne Edwards is from Englewood. He and his wife, his wife is Dale. And so he grew up in Englewood, saw his brothers designing gym shoes. We call them gym shoes in Detroit. I don't know if you call them sneakers, footwear, Nikes, whatever, but that's what he was wanting to design. And so he ended up working for Nike, started a school to teach our kids how to design. And now he's brought his school to Detroit opened up, reopened a HBCU, the only in Michigan. And so to teach design, so design shoes, design clothing and business. And so I was sharing with his wife and I share with people who are from South Central LA, you know, Compton, et cetera, how I didn't use to like LA. It's probably the place that I've traveled to the most. And the reason why I didn't like it is because it was such a vast difference. It was either you were broke or you were paid in full. I didn't see the in-between until Issa Rae's Insecure.

Jackie Gouché: 02:21 02:21 Yeah.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:21 02:35 So now I know where we at. You know, I, even when I come, I'll stay in Inglewood. Um, I love the, um, the little strip that I know is controversial, but some people call the area black Hollywood.

Jackie Gouché: 02:35 02:36 Yeah.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:37 03:04 and others who live in the area, from what I understand, they don't like it. So sloths and an overhill is where I spend some time when I'm there. So, yeah, you've talked to us about the notable musicians and entertainers and icons that you've worked with. So what was the most notable experience or what was most notable about the experience working with these icons?

Jackie Gouché: 03:05 03:56 You know what, the most notable part of the entire experience was, so the first time I met a celebrity, I think it was Diana Ross. That was the first big name that I sang for. And I was so excited because, you know, I grew up in that era. She was in the Motown era. So Diana Ross was huge in my eyes. And I was so excited about meeting her. And then when I met her and I worked with her, had a brief conversation, took pictures and all that stuff. And then I went home and nothing about my life had changed. So it lost meeting celebrities kind of lost the allure. It lost the excitement because I realized that they're just people just like us, you know. And and so from that point on, you know, I felt blessed and fortunate to have the opportunity to sing with them. But I no longer saw them like they were not. They were no longer on that pedestal that they used to be on. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:56 04:33 Yeah, for sure. I know that, you know, there's a saying something to the effect of when you meet those that what you know that you have high regard for when you meet them, that kind of disappoints you and whatnot. So some people you probably want to just keep them at a far, you know, because they are human and they, and they have experiences just like anyone else, which is kind of like, you know, going into this next part, who are you beyond fighting a drug addiction, battling self image issues, being married to the same man three times and raising hip hop R and B stars.

Jackie Gouché: 04:36 08:06 Which part of that question you want me to answer? Who are you, Beyonce? I am a little black girl from LA who grew up, you know, with no confidence in my appearance because I was dark skinned and had kinky hair. And, you know, in the 60s and 70s, that wasn't popular. So I didn't like the way I looked, but I had confidence in my musical ability. And so through as I grew and music actually is what saved my life. You know, because even though I went through the period of addiction and all that I always had music to fall back on, even in the worst of my addiction. Yeah, come off of a binge or whatever I would go to the piano and sing and pray and talk to God and so music was like my salvation. And then, you know, going through, I like to tell people when I talk about my experiences as a mother of three boys, a single parent, or my husband was incarcerated and, you know, all the struggles and being on welfare and all that stuff. I like to tell people that I appreciate all of that. difficulty. I appreciate every struggle, every trial, every, you know, all the hard times, the addiction, the welfare. I appreciate all of it because it developed a strength and a resilience and a wisdom in me that I wouldn't have had otherwise. So, you know, I kind of grew up with my sons. You know, I grew up as I raised them. And the stabilizing factor in all of that is my relationship with God. And I don't mean that in the religious sense of what church tells us or what religion tells us, but a real actual relationship with a person who was there with me and there for me through all that I went through. You know what I mean? There's a story that, I mean, it's not a story, it's an experience that I share. It's in my book. And I tell it all the time because it's so wonderful. When DeSmoke was born, the day DeSmoke was born, I got high. I was in addiction while I was having my kids and I got high the morning he was I got high 11 o'clock that morning on October 17 1985 his birthday, and I gave birth to him at eight o'clock that night. And so even in the midst of my addiction and how messed up I was, God was there with me. And he was able to turn that situation around. And everybody sees D Smoke now and they think, he's this wonderful artist, he's this great rapper, bilingual, all that, intelligent kid and all that stuff. Nobody knows what we went through and where he came from and all that we overcame for him to be who he is. And he has, because of those experiences, he has such a depth and it's almost, It's almost miraculous to see, you know, what God, and some people don't like, you know, some people would rather hear the term, the universe or source and all that stuff. It's all the same thing. God is the source. He's, he is, you know, everywhere present in the universe. So I can't, I can't even talk about my story without talking about God. And whether people want to hear it or not, God is a very real person, a very real spirit. He's a creator father who loves us. And my connection with him is what enabled me to raise three amazing young men, despite the fact that I didn't know what the heck I was doing. None of it was planned. Not one pregnancy was planned. We were just having sex because we didn't have much else to do. ran out of money and drugs, there was sex. And so I got pregnant three times in a row and it was all haphazard, but look at the outcome, you know what I mean?

Deneen L. Garrett: 08:06 08:50 Yeah, absolutely. And you know what you, you know, you mentioned how, what you went through, you know, you wouldn't pretty much, you wouldn't trade that in because it's, it made you who you are. Right. Yeah. And that's something for us to, to really tap into is that we go through the things that we go through for a reason. And so it's really up to us to figure out what is that? What was I supposed to learn? What was I supposed to do with that? You know, how do I impact others with my experience? Which I'm sure that's part of why you wrote your memoir, Raising Kings. Was there one specific like moment or a catalyst that said, you know what, let me pin this.

Jackie Gouché: 08:51 10:26 Well, actually Raising Kings is the third book that I've written. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I wrote a book back in 2006 called How Would I Know? And that was the first book I wrote. And that was, and I'll tell you where the lyrics come from. It was a song that I wrote called How Would I Know? And the lyrics to that song are, if it wasn't for the times that I was down, If it wasn't for the times that I was bound, for all the times that I wondered how I would ever make it through, all the times that I couldn't see my way and I had to turn to you, how would I know you could deliver? How would I know you could set free? If there had never been a battle, how would I know the victory? How would I know that you could be faithful to meet all of my needs? Lord, I appreciate the hard times. Otherwise, how would I know? So that's where the title of that book came from. So I wrote my story and I found, I went back to college when I was in my 40s, after my kids were grown. And, cause I always had this desire to finish my education cause I had dropped out when I was 18. So I went back to college and in the process of restarting my education, I realized how much I love to write. Just as much as I love to sing and play the piano and teach and do music, I love to write. And in that process, it was cathartic for me to write down my experiences. It was healing, you know, because there was still a lot of pain. That's the part I don't talk about very much. A lot of pain left over from having been disappointed, you know, having gone through the addiction and all the things that I did that I was ashamed of. I was still in a lot of pain. And as I wrote my story, it was healing, you know, and I could see the good in all that I experienced. So now I forgot your question. Did I answer it?

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:28 10:34 Well, so you really, you told us about your first book and what started that.

Jackie Gouché: 10:34 11:09 Okay. Yeah. Um, so that was the first book I wrote. Then I wrote a book called, uh, true worshipers because I've been a worship leader for the last 30 years. And I learned so much about what it really means to be a worshiper. And, and, you know, a lot of people confuse praise and worship with just music that happens in church, but it's so much more to it than that. So I wrote that book. And every time I write a book, it's, it's really for me. Yeah. First, and then I just want you know I want to share the story because I think it's worth sharing. And then Raising Kings was inspired by Daniel by D smoke.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:09 11:11 Okay.

Jackie Gouché: 11:11 12:27 Because I wanted, I wanted. I wanted everybody to see where he came from. Because I heard people talking about overnight success, you know, all of a sudden he wins this show and they think he just started. No, he's been at that. And all of my sons have been working towards their dream of music for their entire lives. I started teaching them when they were three, four, and five. They were singing in church at four, five, and six, five, six, and seven. Daniel was playing classical piano at age eight, you know. So they've been working on music their entire lives. And I just wanted people to know the process that many of us go through to get to where we are. People just think, you know, they're lucky or they're fortunate or, you know, it just happened overnight. Nah, you know, there's a story behind it. And I wanted to share that with the world. I wanted to share it, especially for young people who, who have dreams and aspire to do things like my sons are doing. And I wanted them to know that it is a process. It's not something that, you know, this microwave generation that is coming up right now, they think they can just, you know, get on YouTube and get a bunch of followers and just become famous. No, it's a process. And I wanted them to see the process. And I just, you know, I love sharing my story because so far it's helped a lot of people, it's blessed a lot of people, and I hope it'll continue.

Deneen L. Garrett: 12:28 13:44 Yeah. And you know what, first of all, I do want to congratulate you on raising three amazing sons. I want to congratulate you on overcoming your, your past, your, and then using it right. How they say that test turns into a testimony. And so what you experienced, right. And just all the things that you're doing, you know, kudos to you. And so talking about your experience and thinking about your reasons for writing your books first, you know, first and foremost for self as we, we always need to take care of ourselves first. Exactly. Something that I definitely, you know, emphasize because for years we were, we didn't write, that wasn't what we were supposed to do. And, and so now you're worn out and you're, you're haggard and you're all these things that are no good for other people. So must take care of ourselves first. So thinking about all of the things that you've gone through, so this podcast, Women of Color, an Intimate Conversation, is about empowering the voices of women of color and elevating their voices. What three actions can women of color, Black women in particular, take to tap into their power and voice?

Jackie Gouché: 13:44 17:47 Take time. One of the most important things is time alone. reflection, meditation, even if you're into that. Just time to self-analyze and look inside yourself. Because we're so busy looking around at what's going on and wanting to be a part of this and that and do this and accomplish that. We have to take time to look inside and see what it is that we really desire. I found myself doing things that were expected of me for many years. But then after so many years I look back and I realized that's not really what I wanted. I was doing that because that's what people said I should do or that's what was expected of me. So we really have to search ourselves and find out what we really desire. You know, if we take the time to just get alone and with our thoughts and, you know, and look in our own heart and figure out what it is that we really believe that we're on this earth for and go after that and stop allowing ourselves to be led by what's going on around us, by society and by trends, you know, doing things that everybody else is doing. Do you, really, you gotta learn. And in order to do you, you have to get to know you. I didn't really know who I was for many years. I was in my 50s before I realized who Jackie Gouche is and all that she is capable of doing and all that that is inside of her. So I recommend that Black women or any woman, you don't have to be Black, anybody, take some time alone often. It's not a one-time thing. It's a, you know, However, so often every week, every day, spend some time searching yourself and seeing what it is that you truly desire. Another thing that I would recommend is that, you know, you have some kind of spiritual community because we are not just these bodies that we live in. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience. Now this is, this is true whether people believe it or not. So, you know, we need to get connected to our spiritual source have some kind of spiritual community spiritual fellowship spiritual time or belief system. Because, you know, like I said, we are spirits. And so if you are not connected to that aspect of yourself, you will kind of be flailing, trying to figure things out for your whole entire life. So one is the meditation in time alone. Two is your connect to a spiritual community. And three, be content with what you are. Be content. Contentment is not a strong enough word. Grateful. Grateful. That's the key. Great. Oh, see, now I've got more keys coming up in my head. Gratefulness and acceptance. I don't know if I can put those in the same category, but they're both very important. Being grateful, just finding something to be grateful for because that feeling of gratitude is empowering. And, you know, if you if you allow yourself to sink into sadness and depression and, you know, wishing you looking at what other people have and wishing you had it as opposed to being grateful for what you have. You know what I mean? And then accepting, acceptance, instead of fighting against. My therapist said something to me a while ago. She said, you create your own suffering by wanting something other than what you have. You know, and that doesn't mean be content and don't ever strive for more. It just means don't be dissatisfied with your life. Be grateful, be content, and yet, you know, have goals and dreams and strive towards them. But while you're striving, don't dislike where you are, because that feeling of that negative emotion that resides in that discontent, it'll keep, it'll stifle you. you know, gratefulness and gratitude and acceptance moves you forward to, to who it is that you're really trying to be. So those, those are the three, three, four keys that I would recommend, you know, meditation, uh, spiritual connection and gratitude and acceptance.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:47 18:07 Yeah. And so with the, the, the contentment and being grateful, um, what you were saying is, you know, makes me think of like the story in the Bible about the talents about, you know, When God gives us things, you know, what are you going to do with what, you know, what you're given? Right. Because I got to really do anything with that. Then why should I give you more?

Jackie Gouché: 18:07 18:08 Exactly.

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:08 18:23 That's what I thought about when you were talking about being content and being grateful. And absolutely. Like, I love, you know, this is for the audience, those who are listening. love yourself as you are, and do what you need to do to be better.

Jackie Gouché: 18:23 18:23 Exactly.

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:23 19:21 Things that you want to change about yourself, appreciate that you're that, that you have it, and put in the work to be, you know, who you want to be. And so the first thing you talked about, the taking time, is something that I actually recently practiced. So I took like a two-month social media break. And I did it to pause, right? Just take time to be present, not being caught up in the whole social media, like, oh my God, let me post. And with the algorithm, all of those things, I got away from that. I took my time. And so often as Black women and other women of color, we do a lot and even too much. So we don't always prioritize self-care and ourselves, right? So you just talked about the importance of taking time pausing, tell us a little bit more about the importance of taking time for ourselves and the power in the pause.

Jackie Gouché: 19:21 21:57 Yeah, there is. You can't, you can't hear clearly. And when I say here, I mean, you hear your own thoughts, even. and hear, because there is a source outside of us that speaks to us that we need. And I know I keep getting back to this spiritual aspect, but I can't get away from it because that's what got me. That's who I am. You know what I mean? You can't hear clearly because there's so much noise. You know what I mean? There's so much noise. I'm talking about everywhere you go. You can't go to a restaurant without the music playing, you know, and you try to talk over them because the music is so loud. And there's just so many things coming at us. We have to separate ourselves from all the noise around us so that we can hear our own heart. and we can hear our own thoughts, and we can hear what it is that is inside of us and our true desires. You're not going to tap into what is truly you and who you have the potential to be. You won't know that person if you're always getting input from outside, from everywhere. You get the radio in the car, the internet, you know, on the job, people talking, just noise. I've just recently celebrated my 60th birthday and I've come to this point now in life where if I don't get away, it'll drive me crazy. Everybody's talking in all these voices and all I want to hear is my own voice. You know what I mean? And so it's so important. I'm getting pretty good at it now. It's a practice that takes developing. You're not gonna just all of a sudden be this expert meditator. You're not, because as soon as you sit down, all these thoughts start going through your head and there's still noise. The echo from the noise is ringing in your head and it takes time to settle yourself and actually get quiet and hear that voice. But when you do get to that point, it's a wonderful feeling. I've had so much growth Just from self reflection and of course the therapy, you know that I've gone through that's another that's a whole nother subject but that's important too because sometimes you do need a professional voice to bounce your ideas off I'm just speaking to your life and to help you to focus and center yourself. But yeah that to me that's vital that is the number one. getting alone and meditating and hearing your thoughts and journaling, taking time to write down what it is that you hear and feel as you're alone. You know what I mean? That's number one. Without that, life is just chaotic and unorganized and, you know.

Deneen L. Garrett: 21:57 22:45 Yeah, absolutely. Happy 60th birthday. Thank you. And I want to stress to those who are listening, and you kind of said this a little while ago about what you learned in your 50s, that age is nothing but a number. So regardless of what age you are, it doesn't matter. You can still do what you need to do. You can still get to where it is that you're trying to get to. Again, just take time. you know, get a spiritual community, be content and be grateful. Those are some things that, you know, will help you to get there. And so I honor my late sister author and poet soul true by asking about dreams deferred, which is the title of one of her books. Please share a dreams deferred moment.

Jackie Gouché: 22:45 24:48 Ooh. Okay. I got a good one for you. When I was 30, no, I was in my twenties. And my kids were little, my kids were like four, five, and six. And I was still, you know, I was working in the industry, I was singing background. And I heard that Stevie Wonder was having auditions. And so he was having auditions for a three-month tour to Japan. I knew I had these three babies and a job, and I couldn't go away for three months and leave my kids. But I went to the audition just because I wanted to meet Stevie, because he was my idol. You know, I grew up. got I was introduced to my own musical gift by listening to Stevie and songs in the key of life that kind of opened up my musical world so he was like my idol so I went to the audition just to meet him long story short they hired me okay and I was excited but I was troubled because I knew I couldn't go. But I went ahead to a few rehearsals, and each night, every night at the rehearsals, inside of me, this voice is going, Jackie, what are you doing? You can't leave for three months. You got three babies and a job that you won't have if you go away. So I had to tell him, I had to turn him down. I had to call Nate, the director, and say, Nate, I'm sorry, I can't go. And he, he's like, what do you mean you can't go? And I said, I can't go. And I told him why he said, okay, take care. And he hung up the phone and I laid on my bed and just cried. Cause it was so, it was devastating for me, you know, that was my dream. So, so, but the other side of that, the full circle moment is at my 60th birthday party a few months ago. Stevie Wonder comes to the party. So my son, D Smoke, had worked with him and he fell in love, Stevie fell in love with D Smoke's music. And I actually went to the studio and met him again. And so Smoke called him and said, Stevie, I want you to, can you make a video wishing my mother a happy birthday so we can play it at the party? He said, party? I want to come to the party. Stevie Wonder came to my 60th birthday party. Oh, I love it. Got up on stage and sang,

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:49 24:58 Happy birthday to you. Oh, so special. Oh, special. It's an amazing Dreams Deferred story.

Jackie Gouché: 24:58 25:00 Yes, yes, yes.

Deneen L. Garrett: 25:00 25:45 I love that. I love it. And then also the thing with it is, okay, you knew. when you went into this that, look, I can't go through with it, right? So you already knew you were going to defer that situation anyway, right? But it was just, you, but you wanted to meet him. So if not, I mean, that is what you, that was what you wanted to do. Cause again, you knew you couldn't take the job. So, you know, we have to, and that, you know, we have to realize and, and become aware of the things that we're doing, the things that we're putting out there and why we're doing our, what we're doing. And then it can be content and grateful about it, right? Because it's not like it was a dream deferred. Yes, and you got to meet him. And that's what you wanted to do. And then later, boom, he's at your party.

Jackie Gouché: 25:45 26:05 Yes. How beautiful. And not only did he sing, wait, not only did he sing happy birthday, he sang my Sharia more. But he changed the words to Mama Jackie. Oh, it was so surreal. I was like on stage thinking, is this really happening right now? Wonderful. Yeah.

Deneen L. Garrett: 26:05 26:17 That is amazing. That is amazing. And you know what? You talked earlier about dreams. So I empower women of color to live a dream lifestyle. What is a dream lifestyle to you and how do you live a dream life?

Jackie Gouché: 26:20 27:45 Well, it took me many years to get to the point where I am living a dream life. Because like I said before, throughout my youth, I was doing what I thought I was supposed to do. I was doing things that were expected of me. I actually pursued a career as an artist, as a gospel artist, Because that seemed to be my path. That seemed to be what I was supposed to do. But in hindsight, I look back and realize that's not really what I wanted. That wasn't my true desire. That's what I thought people should do. So living a dream life is finding out what it is that you really desire and going after that, even if it doesn't agree with what people around you say you should be doing or what people prescribe or they look at you and they go, oh, you're this, you should be doing that. No, you got to figure it out for yourself. Living a dream life is being true to yourself. You know, like right now, I'm an author and I love writing and I love speaking. And there are still people around me saying, when are you going to put out another project? When are you going to put out some more music? I don't know. My kids do that now. I'm on a page. I'm doing what I want to do. You know what I mean? It's really being true to yourself. And sometimes that means disappointing people. And that's okay. You got to be okay with that. You know, you can't be a people pleaser. You can't, you know, you, you have to have your own opinion and it has to be a strong one so that you can follow your, follow your own path, you know?

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:45 28:10 Absolutely. And it goes back to what you said, take time, right? Take time to get in tune with you to know what it is that you want so that you can be true to yourself and do the things that you want. And again, if somebody's disappointed, so what? Cause it's not, their life is yours, right? When we're living for other people, we run ourselves in circles, we waste a lot of time. So absolutely all of that.

Jackie Gouché: 28:10 30:06 And we forfeit a lot of peace. We forfeit peace. I finally, like I can tell you what peace feels like now, you know, and back in the day, I couldn't, there was no peace. There was always striving, you know, striving and trying to do this and make things happen and make this money and do this. And I didn't know peace. But now that I'm following my own path and doing what my own heart is telling me to do, I know, even to, you mentioned earlier that I've been married to the same man three times, even to the relationship, the divorce, because I left him, because I realized I married this man at 21. And although he's a wonderful man and I love him to this day and he's been a great father, he wasn't for me. And it took all those years for me to accept that. And then once I stepped into it and I started, that was my part. One part of me being true to myself was leaving him. you know, because we just weren't a match. It was, my relationship was always stressful because we're just different. We're just so different. And we didn't know that 30, 40, Jesus, it's been 39 years since I married him. 39 years ago, I didn't know. I was just this young girl and was excited to be getting married, you know? And, and the fact that I don't have to live with the decision I made when I was 21. Correct. You know what I mean? I allowed myself the privilege of… following my heart and leaving that man. I love him. We hang out to this day. In fact, we're going to the movie Wednesday, but I don't want to be his wife. And that's my own desire. I found that out about myself and I followed that path. And that's beautiful. You know, society has all these prescriptions for the way things should be and how we should do in this, you know, marriage and marriage. Yeah, it's good if your marriage can be till death do you part, but if it's not healthy, right.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:07 30:48 So yeah, absolutely. And you know what, and you said another thing that I want to really emphasize is that you don't have to live with the decisions that you made when you were 20, 20 years ago, etc. You don't have to deal with the decisions that you made five minutes ago. That's not what you wanna do. You know what I'm saying? Right, so that's not what you wanna do. You can always change your mind. Change your mind, that's right. Putting you first, right? Putting you first, putting whatever brings you peace, brings you joy, all those things, it's about you first and then other people. So what would you like to leave the audience with before we wrap?

Jackie Gouché: 30:50 32:53 Two things. I do have the book Raising Kings and it's available on Amazon and it's audiobook and everything, but I just recently finished another book called Harmony. The subtitle is cultivating inner peace. And in that, so there's lessons that I learned and all the spiritual principles and things that I live by now that I've learned over the years that are kind of woven into Raising Kings, they're woven into my story. But rather than have people glean and try to find the lessons, I decided to take the lessons out and write another book. So there's a chapter on subconscious programming and how we're programmed at a very young age from zero to seven and how our subconscious minds are what guide us throughout our lives. And if we don't understand that, we'll never really know ourselves. There's a chapter on the power of words, I am, you know, there's acceptance, there's the power of music, there's the physiology of peace, there's all these chapters. So this book is, I'm really proud of this one, it's powerful and it really will bless people and change lives when they get into it. So the book is called Harmony, Cultivating Inner Peace, and it is on my website, JackieGouche.com. It is the digital version and the audio book. That's one thing that I want to leave people with. And the other one is really just re-emphasizing what I said earlier about the spiritual connection. Life is not complete if you don't connect with a spiritual community and if you don't have spiritual support and if you don't understand that there's more to you than this body that you live in. You are living inside this body that the real you on the inside is so much more than this world wants us to realize. And so I can't stress that enough. Getting contact with your own spirit, your own heart, spiritual community, support from people who are like-minded and you all want to grow together. That is the most important thing in life. That's how you find peace. And so that's what I want to leave you with.

Deneen L. Garrett: 32:53 33:11 Absolutely. No, I appreciate both. So your contact information will be in a show notes. So folks will have access to your information. I just want to thank you so much, Jackie Gouche on letting your voice to women of color in intimate conversation, and enjoy the rest of your day.

Jackie Gouché: 33:11 33:14 Thank you so much for having me. My pleasure.